On June 21, 1991, about a month after Rickey Henderson of the Athletics set the record for most career stolen bases in the major leagues, I got to interview the man who had held the mark, Lou Brock.
In downtown Cincinnati to promote an Upper Deck Heroes of Baseball old-timer’s game at Riverfront Stadium, Brock met at the Hyatt Regency hotel with my colleague, Geoff Hobson, and me for a wide-ranging interview.
A Baseball Hall of Fame inductee who achieved 3,023 hits and 938 stolen bases during his career with the Cubs and Cardinals, Brock was thoughtful, pleasant and generous with his time.
Brock was present when Henderson broke the stolen base record with his 939th steal on May 1, 1991, at Oakland against the Yankees.
Here are excerpts from our tape-recorded interview a few weeks later:
Q.: It was a curious moment when Henderson broke your record. He raised the base above his head and was kind of defiant when he said, “Lou Brock is the symbol of great base stealing, but today I am the greatest of all time.” Do you think that was a proper way to accept the record?
Brock: “I went to him the night before and asked if he wanted help writing something to say. He said yes. I told him if I wrote something down he’d have to read it at the microphone, but he wanted to do it from the heart.
“Rickey wasn’t prepared. He didn’t have a sounding board. What was shocking to me was how exposed he was while going for a major record. You have to have somebody helping you screen the attention.”
Q.: When you were chasing Ty Cobb, did you have someone to help you?
Brock: “When I was going for records, most of the guys I chased were gone. So I was just going after paper. Rickey not only came face to face with history, but I was there physically, and that probably added to the pressure.”
Q,: What else can you tell us about your experience with Rickey Henderson?
Brock: “We ate dinner together the night before and we played cards together the night before that. Rickey was like a son to me. He and my son, Lou Brock Jr., got along well. They talked the same language. The inning before Rickey broke the record, he and I were talking underneath the stands. I told him he had to take control of the game. Let them react to you.”
Q.: Do you see a difference in base stealing today versus when you played?
Brock: Guys like myself, Maury Wills, Luis Aparicio were pioneers, making the basepaths super highways. Teams watered the infield to stop you. You’d have to run on the edge of the infield grass because you knew the ground there was firm. Now, there’s no highway patrol to tell you how fast to go and no citizen’s arrest if you’re going too fast.”
Q.: Do you think you are appreciated as an all-round player, not just a base stealer?
Brock: “Baseball has become highly specialized. They market you in slugging or fielding, and the total player can get lost. My signature is all over stolen base records, but my mark is on other places as well.”
Q.: What was it like when you were with the Cubs before going to the Cardinals?
Brock: “I was a kid with two left feet then. I hadn’t done anything spectacular. I was waiting to hear from Cubs management that I was being sent back to the minor leagues.
“It was frustrating. I was one of those guys who was a shooting star in the organization and went straight up to the top. I came out of Class C baseball to the big leagues in the same year. It was a curse and a blessing. The blessing was I was in the big leagues. The curse was I had to learn to play baseball against the best. You begin to feel you don’t belong.”
Q.: Did you welcome the trade to the Cardinals in June 1964?
Brock: “My last hit for the Cubs was a two-run homer to win a ballgame against the Pirates. The next day I was traded. I got the call from the Cubs general manager, John Holland. He said, ‘Your contract is being transferred.’ Transferred? What the hell is transferred?
“When he told me I had been traded to St. Louis, and who I had been traded for, Ernie Broglio, Bobby Shantz, I thought, ‘Wow, I have value. I really do belong here.’ You begin to take a different view of yourself. It can change all in that one moment.”
Q.: Do you think the Cubs would have won a pennant if you stayed?
Brock: “They probably would have won in 1967, 1968, 1969 and maybe 1970 if they had a leadoff man. The leadoff man is very important because he sets the table for how the game will be played. You look at all your great teams. They have a leadoff guy who can set the table and force the other team to beat what you put on it.”
Q.: One of your teammates on those 1960s Cardinals was Curt Flood. Do you think he’ll ever get his due for what he did to challenge the reserve clause and open the door to free agency for players?
Brock: “He was a pioneer who ended up with arrows in his back because of the stance he took in regards to the system. Curt wanted us to look at baseball hard, to dust if off, polish it up.”
Q,: You rose to national prominence in the 1967 World Series against the Red Sox when you hit .414 and set a World Series record for steals, with seven. What can you tell us about that?
Brock: “Dick Williams was the manager of those 1967 Red Sox. When I was with the Cubs in 1963, we played the Red Sox in a spring training game in Arizona. I got the sign to steal third. Dick Williams was the third baseman. I went diving into third head-first and Dick blocked me and stepped on my hand. I couldn’t get to the base. He tagged me out and said, ‘Kid, what do you think this is, the seventh game of the World Series?’
“So in the seventh game of the 1967 World Series, I’m on second base, and I look into the Red Sox dugout and see Dick Williams and I say to myself, ‘This is too good to be true.’ So I steal third. It couldn’t be more appropriate.”
Q.: You played in three World Series with the 1960s Cardinals. What was it like being on those teams?
Brock: “We had practical jokers on our team. Tim McCarver was one of the best. Bob Gibson was one of the best. Roger Maris was quiet, but he was one of them. I was surprised he fit in that well with that group of guys. They nailed my shoes to the floor a couple of times.
“We were pretty much like the Gashouse Gang. Nobody knew it, but we were just that wild. Maris joined right in.”
Q.: How is it those 1960s Cardinals teams had so many leaders among the players?
Brock: “I call them fighters. One of the differences between the Cubs and the Cards then was attitude.
“With the Cubs, we’d lose and the manager and coaches would say, ‘Sit at your locker and think about the game. Think about how you lost.’
“With the Cards, we lost the first game I was in a St. Louis uniform. I was expecting everyone to sit down and put their heads in their lockers. Then I heard the manager and coaches say, ‘Go get your rest. Those guys got lucky today. We’re going to kick their butts tomorrow. Somebody on that other team is going to pay for it tomorrow.’
“That whole attitude was right down my alley.”
Lou Brock and Tom Seaver will both be sorely missed. Please allow me to say that I enjoyed listening to you on the Mark Strauss show. That last talking point. The one on Stan Musial and any possible regrets on not coming back for the 1964 season really hit me. I had never really thought about that. If Stan Musial is in left field in 1964, we probably don’t trade for Lou Brock. Incredibile stuff. As always, thank you.
Thanks for your loyal readership, Phillip.
Thanks for dusting off this interview…this is really great stuff.
Thanks, Gary. I had been meaning to transcribe that interview for years and kept putting it off. Lou Brock’s passing finally prompted me to do it. It was like discovering buried treasure.