RetroSimba

Al Jackson, acquired in the trade that sent Ken Boyer to the Mets, had a positive impact on the Cardinals. In his two seasons with them, Jackson, a left-handed pitcher, helped the Cardinals to a World Series title, ranked among the National League’s elite in earned run average, pitched a one-hitter and posted an overall record of 22-19 with a 2.97 ERA.

On the afternoon of Jan. 13, 2012, I interviewed Jackson, 76, at the New York Mets’ spring training facility in Port St. Lucie, Fla. He was gracious with his time and thoughtful with his answers.

That tape-recorded interview is presented here:

Q: In 1964, the Cardinals went into the final three-game series of the season against the Mets, looking to clinch the pennant. In Game 1, the Cardinals started Bob Gibson and you started for the Mets. You beat Gibson and the Cardinals, 1-0, on a five-hitter, delaying the Cardinals’ clinching until the final day of the season. What do you recall about that game? Boxscore

Al Jackson: I was supposed to pitch the night before that in Milwaukee. And Casey (manager Casey Stengel) came to me and said, “They think we’re going to lie down in St. Louis. Why don’t you pitch the Friday night in St. Louis instead of Thursday in Milwaukee.” I said, “No problem.”

Q: Did you leave the Cardinals and their fans a little shaken by your performance?

Al Jackson: We were about 59 games out of first place. But no baseball game is a pushover. When we came into St. Louis, there were banners all over the town saying, “We’re going to the championship.” With us being so far out and such a poor club, they thought it would be a little easier than it was.

Q: In October 1965, the Mets trade you and third baseman Charlie Smith to the Cardinals for Ken Boyer. Many Cardinals fans were upset Boyer was traded. What was your reaction to the deal?

Al Jackson: The Mets were a losing ballclub. The Cardinals were a better ballclub. I loved New York, but I had been with a losing ballclub for four years. So I thought going over there (to St. Louis) would be the greatest thing _ which it was, because it ended up that the next year we won the World Series.

Q: Last month, Ron Santo was elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by a veterans committee. Boyer again was a candidate but wasn’t elected. Does Boyer deserve election to the Hall of Fame?

Al Jackson: No doubt about it. He should have been elected the first time around on that (writers) ballot.

Q: In 1966, your first season with the Cardinals, you won 13 and had an ERA of 2.51. Your ERA was sixth-best in the National League. The five ahead of you: Sandy Koufax, Mike Cuellar, Juan Marichal, Jim Bunning and Bob Gibson. Was it your best season in the big leagues?

Al Jackson: Yes. I was really consistent all year, even though I didn’t start the first month.

Q: Was your ability to throw the sinker a difference-maker that year?

Al Jackson: That was my main pitch. I wasn’t a strikeout pitcher. I was a groundball pitcher. It took me a long time to get there, for the simple reason that I didn’t know how. I was told when I got to the Mets (in 1962), “You have to get the ball down.” But they didn’t tell me how. Through trial and error, I found out.

Q: In May 1966, the Cardinals traded Ray Sadecki to the Giants, opening a spot in the rotation for you. In your first start for the Cardinals, May 13 at St. Louis, you pitched a six-hit shutout, beating the Braves, 8-0. You also had a two-run double and a sacrifice fly for a career-high 3 RBI. Which was more satisfying: pitching the shutout or getting the 3 RBI? Boxscore

Al Jackson: Red (manager Red Schoendienst) talked all the time about how I stayed in shape. So even though I didn’t have a chance to start a game during the first month of the season, I was ready.

I was taught all the time that I wasn’t just a pitcher. I was a ballplayer. If you’re a ballplayer, you’re going to do more than just one thing. I was a pretty decent hitter. I could run. And I took pride in it.

Gibson and I had a bet. Before the season, we bet which one of us would have the most home runs, best batting average and most stolen bases. In June, he led in home runs. I led in batting average. We were in Atlanta, and I got on base. Gibson and I were tied in stolen bases. And he’s hollering from the dugout, “He’ll steal. He’ll steal.” The first baseman (Joe Torre) was standing behind me, not holding me on. Gibson yells louder, “He’ll steal.” I stole the base and Gibson went off, “I told you he would steal.” Boxscore

Q: Tell us more about Gibson …

Al Jackson: Great competitor. In all the years we played against one another, he didn’t fraternize. Neither did I. When I was with the Mets, before games he would run down the right-field line and I would run down the left-field line and our paths would cross in the outfield, but we never did speak to one another. We didn’t speak to each other until I came to the Cardinals. That was the mindset guys had then.

Q: Steve Carlton was on that ’66 Cardinals club, too. What was he like as a 22-year-old rookie?

Al Jackson: He had great stuff and he caught on fast, because he was kind of rushed to the big leagues.

Q: You began the 1967 season in the Cardinals’ rotation and in April pitched a one-hit shutout, beating the Astros, 4-0, in Houston. Bob Aspromonte broke up the no-hitter with a leadoff single in the eighth. Do you recall what happened? Boxscore

Al Jackson: Yes, I do _ big-time. It wasn’t so much the no-hitter. I just wanted to maintain the stuff that I had that night, the control that I had. I wasn’t throwing as good as I was earlier in the game but I also knew that when I got a little tired, I was a better pitcher because I could keep the ball down. Against Aspromonte, I got the groundball I wanted. The pitch may have been down the middle because it was hit in the hole between short and third. If I had thrown it a little further away, the ball may have gone to the shortstop. I wasn’t worried about losing the game. I just wanted to stay on top of mine.

I also had pitched a one-hitter with the Mets against Houston. Joe Amalfitano got the hit. Boxscore Later, I was asked to speak at a dinner in New York. I began by saying I disliked Italians. The room was full of Italians and they looked at me like I was crazy. Then I had to explain: the two guys who broke up my no-hitters are named Amalfitano and Aspromonte. It got a laugh.

Q: After two months of the ’67 season, the Cardinals moved you from the rotation to the bullpen. Why?

Al Jackson: I got into a bad funk. I wasn’t getting people out as a starter. Everyone else was pitching well. I had pitched a little out of the bullpen the year before. And they needed another left-hander in the bullpen. I didn’t know how it was going to work out, but it did.

Q: You were 9-4 that year for the National League champions …

Al Jackson: I thought I really helped that club. That was an enjoyment for me.

Q: Why didn’t you get an opportunity to pitch in the World Series against the Red Sox?

Al Jackson: I never did ask Red (Schoendienst) about it. I found out earlier that in the middle of the season I already was traded back to the Mets when the Cardinals got Jack Lamabe for a player to be named later. The Mets told the Cardinals they could keep me until the end of the season. That was the deal that they had.

Q: And, sure enough, when the World Series ended, you were sent to the Mets. What was your reaction?

Al Jackson: I always thought when a man has a job at home it’s the best job he could have. I lived in New York. I hated to leave the Cardinals, but I was going home.

Q: I’m going to mention four names and ask you to give your immediate reaction to each. Lou Brock …

Al Jackson: Lou turned out to be one heck of a player. I saw him earlier, with the Cubs, and he wasn’t that good. I know the talent was there, but it wasn’t until he got to the Cardinals that things started to happen for him. And then he mastered the thing.

Q: Orlando Cepeda …

Al Jackson: What a clutch player. When he got base hits, when he drove in runs, they were big. He was really the catalyst of our ballclub.

Q: Roger Maris …

Al Jackson: Roger was a pro. When he came to the Cardinals, he just made that lineup so good. He just fit right in. I think we were really missing that left-handed bat.

Q: Curt Flood …

Al Jackson: Great defensive player. He was a great hitter, too. Here was a man who got 200 hits every year. But asking about Flood reminds me of when I was still pitching for the Mets and we were playing the Cardinals in the Polo Grounds. I had a one-run lead in the ninth inning. There were two outs (and a runner on first base) and here comes Stan Musial to pinch-hit.

I always said, “My momma didn’t raise no fool.” Flood was due up after Musial. And as good a hitter as Flood was, I thought about how years back, (pitcher) Harvey Haddix had told me how dangerous this man Musial was in the clutch. And so I said to myself, “I got a one-run lead in the ninth inning. This man is not going to beat me.” I threw four pitches outside and he went on to first base. I got the next man, Flood, to ground out. Game over. Boxscore

Q: Musial was 4-for-5 in his career against you. He batted .800 against you. You were smart to put him on with the walk …

Al Jackson: I’m glad I had a place to put him. I was asked after the game, “Why would you walk him? He’s a left-handed hitter.”  I said, “Why? That’s Musial.” Just look at his record. He’s known for beating teams. And here I am in that small ballpark _ just 250 feet down both lines. I know he can hit for power down both lines. And I never thought about striking him out. That wasn’t on my mind at all.

Previously: An interview with Bill White

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(Updated April 30, 2020)

At 41, Jim Kaat was an unlikely candidate to be a savior for the Cardinals’ pitching staff in 1980.

The Cardinals bought Kaat’s contract from the Yankees on April 30, 1980.

Before the Cardinals called, Kaat looked to be finished as a player. The Yankees were ready to cut him loose after he posted an 0-1 record and 7.20 ERA in four relief stints for them in 1980.

“I was auditioning for a broadcasting job, cutting a demonstration tape,” Kaat told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

Fine fit

The Cardinals were willing to take a chance on Kaat because their bullpen was in tatters. In the Cardinals’ first 17 games, their relievers were 0-5 with a 7.46 ERA. Of the Cardinals’ first 10 defeats, four came in their opponents’ last at-bat and six occurred in the seventh inning or later.

“We want somebody who can put the lid on,” Cardinals manager Ken Boyer told the Post-Dispatch. “Kaat has always had good stuff and he’s a great competitor.”

Said Cardinals pitching coach Claude Osteen: “Age doesn’t apply to Kaat. He’s probably as quick around the mound as anybody in baseball. He has the body of a younger man, certainly not someone in his 40s.”

Kaat told the Post-Dispatch, “I stay in shape. I’ve always treated baseball as a year-round job. With all the weight machines and exercise facilities available to them, there is no reason for baseball players to be out of shape.”

Old reliable

Kaat made an immediate impact with the Cardinals, pitching scoreless relief in his first three outings, retiring 14 batters in a row and lifting the club’s confidence.

The left-hander made his Cardinals debut on the day he was acquired. Relieving starter Pete Vuckovich with one out in the eighth on April 30, 1980, against the Cubs at St. Louis, Kaat retired five Cubs on eight pitches. Using a slider and curve, he struck out Larry Biittner and got the other four on groundouts. Boxscore

“Kaat comes in and gets five outs in his first game,” Cardinals catcher Ted Simmons said to The Sporting News. “That is reassuring and that can carry over.”

It was Kaat’s first appearance since allowing three runs in one inning to the White Sox two weeks earlier with the Yankees.

“When I keep the ball low and have it sink, when batters are hitting the ball on the ground, I know I’m pitching my way,” Kaat told the Post-Dispatch.

Getting it done

With his starting rotation in disarray because of injuries to Bob Forsch, John Fulgham and Silvio Martinez, Boyer turned to Kaat to help fill the void.

“I still think I’m best as a starter,” Kaat said to the Post-Dispatch.

On June 4, 1980, at New York, Kaat pitched a 10-inning shutout, limiting the Mets to seven singles, in the Cardinals’ 1-0 victory. Ken Reitz hit a home run off Neil Allen in the 10th, giving Kaat his first win as a Cardinal. Boxscore

Under the headline “Stubborn Dutchman Jim Kaat Is Up There With Immortals,” columnist Furman Bisher wrote in The Sporting News, “On the day he was 41 years, six months and 27 days old, Kaat pitched 10 shutout innings and beat the Mets, and he still looked at the end as if he could have pitched until dawn.”

The shutout was the 31st and last of Kaat’s big-league career, but it wasn’t his last impressive performance for the Cardinals.

Four days after Kaat’s shutout, the Cardinals fired Boyer and replaced him with Whitey Herzog. In Herzog’s first game, Kaat started, gave up two earned runs in 6.2 innings against the Braves and St. Louis won, 8-5, in 10 innings. Boxscore

On June 23, 1980, Kaat pitched a seven-hitter in the Cardinals’ 6-1 victory against the Pirates. It was Kaat’s 266th career win, tying him with Bob Feller. Kaat also had a stolen base. Boxscore

As columnist Bill Conlin observed, “Jim Kaat is doing everything but stitching up the baseballs.”

Kaat pitched in 49 games, including 14 starts, for the 1980 Cardinals and had an 8-7 record and 3.82 ERA.

He became a key setup reliever for closer Bruce Sutter in the Cardinals’ 1982 World Series championship season. In four seasons with the Cardinals, Kaat was 19-16 with 10 saves and a 3.82 ERA.

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